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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1169
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Posted - 2016.11.18 19:43:49 -
[1] - Quote
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.
The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.
With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.
And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.
Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.
Anyway, what do you think?
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1169
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Posted - 2016.11.18 19:52:59 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes.
PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?"
Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported.
Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time.
Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1170
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Posted - 2016.11.18 19:56:13 -
[3] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:And here I was thinking about a big ball of Alpha justice dealers rolling thru lowsec and null sec...
What a disappointment. =ƒÿ¡
Big ball of Alpha justice dealers are still on the table. This is more a matter of solo or small group play.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1170
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Posted - 2016.11.18 20:09:30 -
[4] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:
And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks.
Bullshit. It matters for cloaky-MWD-instawarps, where the prototype speed reduction exceeds the MWD speed boost, but outside of that, a prototype is perfectly serviceable for a huge portion of non-covops cloaking applications.
Well, I'm just repeating a common sentiment. Normally, I was satisfied with a prototype, especially if trying to move a standard frigate through hostile space. The whole point of "fly cheap" can be defeated real fast with more expensive modules than necessary.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1170
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Posted - 2016.11.18 20:22:35 -
[5] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Never used one, not sure what I'd do with it to be honest if you can't do anything while cloaked iirc. Are cloaks important now? I remember recon ships and stealth bombers having those but it never seemed interesting to use
Looking at ships id rather have access to planet stuff/mining/industry but I'm not a pvp guy at heart. I only made this guy to try and get into it actually once I get my wifi turned back on which actually went out on the 15th as my luck would have it.
It's not just for pvp, it's for avoiding pvp. In fact, the prototype is not very good for a pvp attacker because of the almost prohibitive targeting delay.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1170
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Posted - 2016.11.18 20:28:56 -
[6] - Quote
While I understand people might have a negative response. I'm hoping for a discussion, so a few words explaining the reason, or reasons for your position would be appreciated.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1170
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Posted - 2016.11.18 21:04:56 -
[7] - Quote
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks.
Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever).
Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.
That's why I'm arguing for Cloaking 1. You can't taste something without giving it a try. Completely locking out cloaking doesn't give them a chance to try it. Ergo, it defeats the concept of the alpha state. Also, prototype cloaks are hardly fully functional. Fully functional would be covops cloaks, and covops ships. Freeing cloaking one will give a taste of what this mechanic is like, while still maintaining the incentive to upgrade. Also, prototype cloaks don't add to ganking much, it adds to people escaping. The targeting delay gives any alert player time to warp out.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1171
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Posted - 2016.11.18 21:50:29 -
[8] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:I've been thinking about this....The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. The porosity of low/null territories is most affected by wormholes, then jump drives, then bubble immune interceptors and explo strategic cruisers. Gate to gate travel with a cloak is about the least efficient or threatening way to move into someone's space. Hence the insta-lock svipul illness at choke points. AFK cloaky alphas would be a pox on space, limiting it's use.
Prototype cloaks can't warp cloaked.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1171
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Posted - 2016.11.18 21:55:02 -
[9] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!! Then Ill make a suggestion.... This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time. But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience."
I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1176
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Posted - 2016.11.19 04:43:06 -
[10] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:
no the players objected to alphas having cloak and cyno ability
the reason is obvious
1. afk cloaky would be incredibly abused 2. hotdrops would be incredibly abused
1+2 or 1 or 2 would mean pl or nc or goons would own every system in low/null and eve would die as noone else would bother go to null ccp was right to restrict it
dont like the restriction buy a plex or sub
Ok, I'm not arguing in any way shape or form for cyno ability, so I don't see why you would use it as a counter argument. Second, I'm omega, this isn't about me whining for something I don't have. Covops is essential for maintaining a trade network in null.
I still don't buy the afk cloaker argument in whole. It sounds like it could be fixed with a fuel requirement for the prototype cloak.
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks.
Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever).
Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.
Safety green means no LS or Nulle, not sure if green blocks wh access too. Doesn't that sound a bit much? How can people taste LS or Null lifestyle if they can't get there?
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
Now that hindsight has kicked me straight in the groin, I have to say that Alphas at the stage they are currently in are not likely to be that invested in going into null-sec alone. If they are going into null-sec or even wormhole space, they are more likely to do it with a group of friends which is probably why there are so many corporations recruiting them right now near or at the starter systems. Honestly, I don't think an Alpha needs access to cloaking if they have safety in numbers due to the corps they are likely to join such as Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Eve University, etc.
While there is of course safety in numbers why is having alpha swarms the only option for alphas to explore a good thing?
Like I said in the beginning. If people can taste something then they will want more. So they can mine with crappy skills, so an alpha will want more. If players have to base their gameplay around not having an ability, as opposed to have an impaired ability, then they will not feel the incentive for more.
Frostys Virpio wrote:
We should also give them cyno I then so they can try it right?
Then might as well give them battle ship I so they can try that too.
And carrier because they need to try it.
Might as well not limit them.
Oh and just so they can try it all in a somewhat decent time line, make it so they train faster than Omega because they have quite some catch up to to if they want to try titans to see if it's interesting enough to sub.
Ok, this is a straw man argument. It is not a counter argument to my argument, it is you arguing with yourself. Congratulations, you won.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1180
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Posted - 2016.11.19 15:06:27 -
[11] - Quote
Thank you to everyone that participated in this discussion. I was afraid posting this kind of topic in GD would get me only troll responses, but there were several thoughtful replies. I appreciate it.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1192
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Posted - 2016.11.20 15:50:06 -
[12] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:7/10 for trolling.
Hell, and I like cloaky campers, especially the afk ones who strike fear into the heart of tough guy null sec folk :)
Not all controversial topics are trolls. I was definitely more interested in discussion. You know, people have a starting position, then modify their position based on the comments made by others. And reading through the thread, that's what I got. Only one person responded with insult, there were a couple monosyllabic responses, but most replies have been serious and thoughtful. While I'd like to think the tone of the op determined the tone of the thread, maybe I just lucked out this time.
Obviously, my intention was to bring others to my point of view, but that hasn't happened much. More, I found myself modifying my own stance. I edited the op to include the idea to make cloaks require fuel, but that was not my idea, it came from Eternus8lux8lucis down thread. Also, the idea to make a cloak only good for 1 minute came up in thread, which would be good for getting past gate camps, but not much else. This was another idea that came up in thread and not from me.
So I am happy with where this thread has gone so far but not because I was trolling.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1215
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Posted - 2016.11.21 19:45:44 -
[13] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:
Alphas are good as they are! Try to convince some Alphas to subsribe instead of making Alphas so good that omegas start to think about going to Alpha!
Ok, this thread is definitely not about "making alphas so good that omegas start to think about going alpha." The idea is to give alphas a very limited cloak so it is easier for them to get in-and-out of lowsec/null. That's pretty much it.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1215
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Posted - 2016.11.21 19:46:49 -
[14] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Iria, do you have any idea how many 'cloaky' threads there are?
Just think of a crazy number, then double it.
It was not my intention to insult you, sorry if came across that way.
This is a cloaky thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Actually, the focus of this thread is not like other threads. But I did expect many people to associate it with "AAAAGH! afk cloak are cancer."
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1220
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Posted - 2016.11.22 14:11:20 -
[15] - Quote
Egsise wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!! Then Ill make a suggestion.... This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time. But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience." I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply. Implied facepalm. Did you just "accidentally" forget wormholes where we always afk cloaked.
Not being able to afk cloak in wh keeps the incentive up for going omega.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1220
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Posted - 2016.11.22 14:33:33 -
[16] - Quote
Captain Awkward wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:Not being able to afk cloak in wh keeps the incentive up for going omega. In order to have a cloaky scout in every C5/C6 wormhole you need a lot of subbed acounts. If alphas could cloak, that number would be reduced to 0.
So would making the prototype cloak require fuel. The goal of this thread is ways to make cloaking viable for transiting alphas, without opening up problems like afk cloaking. Give alphas a taste of cloaking mechanics while still keeping it impaired enough to give incentives to omega.
O is not an inherently good number.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1220
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Posted - 2016.11.22 14:42:20 -
[17] - Quote
Carl Kowalski wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:You need only two features. "Get Outta Dodge" which lasts 10-30seconds tops and a lil longer I need to sit and wait this out which is 10-30mins max. Any longer and you can either log off or run away and if you are caught that badly then yeah its just your time to die.
This is, what is missing for alpha pilots: "a get out of jail" card, not permacloak. So I suggest the following changes: - the existing prototype cloak needs cloaking II - alpha clones are allowed to learn cloaking I - a new module "basic cloak" (or so) is added This basic cloak could have the following attributes: - needs cloaking I - when activated cloaks ship for 1 minute - reactivation delay of 5 minutes - when player logged off cloaked, on login the reactivation timer starts at 5 minutes - maybe lower the speed malus a bit, so that this cloak is a viable option for travel fits of omega players too Opinions?
Only problem I see is the 1 minute max. This pretty much makes the cloak only useful for the cloak-mwd trick. Which is still an option. Useful in ls or hs wars, but no good for bubble camps. I still think it should last long enough to slowboat under the speed malus out of at least one bubble.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1239
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Posted - 2016.11.24 04:11:13 -
[18] - Quote
Natural CloneKiller wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:
--
edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument.
If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate.
I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.
edit2 - Another interesting suggestion is a 1 minute cloak. Such a cloak would be useful for getting past camps, and not much else.
Do not be stupid. You are asking for afk scouts. Bad bad blond...get back in your cage.
Don't quote me where I cite limitations that eliminate afk scouts and then insult me. Read. The problem isn't my suggestion. The problem is people having knee-jerk reactions without even making an effort to think about it.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1291
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Posted - 2016.11.29 14:04:32 -
[19] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:ITT: vet alts pretending to be new players in order to push an agenda so they can have more useful, and free, alts.
Gee, who'd have thought.
ITT. People who didn't read the thread making sweeping statements about the thread.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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